Exploring the Facets of LGBTQ+ Legal History in Chile and the U.S. with Sam Apostolopoulos

“Every place has a queer history.” Those are some of the impactful words shared by our guest today, Fulbright 2022-2023 U.S. Student Researcher to Chile, Sam Apostolopoulos. Sam’s Fulbright project focuses on understanding the legal history of LGBTQ+ rights in Chile and comparing that with the history of LGBTQ+ legal frameworks in the United States. Through this conversation, Sam shares a great deal of insights about how LGBTQ+ legal rights evolved in Chile, the discourse used to protect and advocate for these rights, the challenges that the queer community faced during eras such as the Pinochet dictatorship, and where things stand now in the country. Sam also touches a bit on this legal history in the U.S. including a court case involving a nonbinary person that occurred 400 years ago! In this way, his message is clear. There is queer history everywhere, and we can all play a part in remembering, reviving, and sustaining it!

Another important aspect of this conversation is the way that Sam’s project also works to interrupt existing narratives of the United States’s relationship to LGBTQ+ rights. The U.S. has often attempted to portray itself as a beacon of queer and trans rights that other countries should follow, despite the U.S.’s own record of lack of protections and attacks on its own LGBTQ+ community, and the fact that nations it tries to advise sometimes have stronger systems. In the case of Sam, he shows that Chile often has legalized protections for queer and trans people before the United States, and to this day offers greater federal legal support for the LGBTQ+ community. Furthermore, Sam also articulates how the embrace of LGBTQ+ protections in Chile as human rights and the U.S.’s resistance towards that framework have helped exacerbate some of these differences. So the question remains: what is it that the United States can learn from other countries such as Chile? We hope you enjoy this episode!

Transcript

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 0:06

Welcome to another episode of Fulbright forward a diversity podcast. I'm your host for today Jeremy common Sperling, the Fulbright diversity and inclusion liaison for programs in the Western Hemisphere, otherwise known as the Americas and the Caribbean. Every place has a queer history. Those are some of the impactful words shared by our guests today. Fulbright 2022 to 2023, US student researcher to Chile, Sam Apostel opolis. Sam's Fulbright project focuses on understanding the legal history of LGBTQ plus rights in Chile, and comparing that with the history of LGBTQ plus legal frameworks in the United States. Through this conversation, Sam shares a great deal of insight about how LGBTQ plus legal rights evolved in Chile. The discourse used to protect an advocate for these rights, the challenges that the queer community faced during era such as the Pinochet dictatorship, and where things stand now in the country. Sam also touches a bit on the legal history in the United States, including a court case that involved a non binary person that occurred 400 years ago. In this way, his message is clear. There is queer history everywhere, and we can all play a part in remembering, reviving and sustaining it. Another important aspect of this conversation is the way that Sam's project works to interrupt existing narratives of the United States its relationship to LGBTQ plus rights. The United States has often attempted to portray itself on a global scale as a beacon of queer and trans rights that other countries should follow, despite the US his own record of lack of protections and attacks on its own LGBTQ plus community, and the fact that many nations it tries to advise have better systems. In the case of Sam, he shows that Chile often is legal as protections for queer and trans people while before the United States, and to this day offers greater federal legal support for the LGBTQ plus community. Furthermore, Sam also articulates how the embrace of LGBTQ plus protections in Chile as human rights and the United States his resistance towards that framework have helped to exacerbate those differences. So what is it that the United States needs to learn from other nations such as Chile? Thank you for listening this intro. We hope you enjoyed the episode. Sam, thank you so much for being part of this episode of Fulbright forward. I'm really excited to have you to have this conversation today.

Sam Apostolopoulos: 2:29

Yeah, thank you for having me. Super excited.

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 2:33

So Sam, usually when we have an episode with Fulbright forward, the first question we ask our guests is really this, if you could just tell us a bit more about your background and who you are.

Sam Apostolopoulos: 2:45

Yeah, for sure. So I'm from a small town in western North Carolina. My hometown has like 2500 people. So by small I mean, like very small. I went to undergrad in North Carolina, where I studied history and politics, and have really focused my research on LGBTQ rights and legal history, mostly in the US, but have had the opportunity to do research abroad prior to living abroad. And, yeah, now now I'm here in Santiago.

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 3:19

I'm just curious to know because like, you know, I think when we talk about things like legal history, at least, I'm not someone who's ever studied it. And I think learning that you have this real focus on LGBTQ experience, or how legal frameworks have even considered the question of LGBTQ rights, who you are. I'm just curious, like, what kind of experiences led you to this work? Let's just start first off in your life in the United States, if there's anything that really like to share with our audience, and then later we can talk about how that brought you to where you are now, as we're talking in Chile?

Sam Apostolopoulos: 3:53

Yeah, I think probably the most like, curtain and experience was when I was in high school, I was able to attend North Carolina's Governor's School, which is a like residential program. Over the summer, I was a social science student there. And I went into one of my classes one day, it's every one of the days and one of the teaching assistants was giving a presentation on like the state of LGBTQ rights in the US. And it was the first time I'd ever really heard about it. Even though I am a queer person I haven't really like looked into it too much. And it's just like, that's something I'll find out as I get older, and how the world works outside of my little bubble. But when I got to this particular class, it ended with a map of the state of legal protections in 2017 for queer people. So like, where states protected housing rights and employment rights and things like that. And I just remember looking at it and thinking like, I'm going to fix this. This is a broken system, and I'm going to be a part of fixing it. Didn't really know how I just knew that like that was what was gonna happen. Kind of like happened, am I my back pocket thought I was going to study politics and university and go run for office and do that track. And then I started taking history classes and realize that the system is the way it is for a reason, which I feel like is kind of obvious. But I needed to like really get it drilled into like, we're in the moment we're in because of the history of like the United States. And thinking about the United States, this current moment, for Grier populations, it's helpful to look long term, because our system is built on common law, which is building on itself, basically. So in order to understand the current moment, you have to kind of dig down to the bottom. And then I just kind of fell down that rabbit hole.

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 5:43

And if I can ask, I just think for someone like myself, who's less familiar with it, as you sort of gotten to know, the history of the United States, you know, which is obviously very important to know, this moment where we're seeing, you know, kind of mammoth amounts of legislation. They're trying to restrict the rights of LGBTQ people, in particular trans and non binary folks. Like, is there anything from the history that really stood out to you in terms of helping us understand this current moment? And of course, I'm curious to ask that question. Also, we talked about Chile a little bit as well, too. And again, it can be maybe more than one moment, but I just want to set that up as you need. Understanding the history kind of helps us better understand the current frame in which we're in. Right. And I think there's a couple examples that I think are really important. And one of them is this case out of Virginia. And I want to say 1629, which dealt with what I think would be considered now a person who's non binary.

Sam Apostolopoulos: 6:40

The case was called the Thomas Thomas seen haul case, and really is like the first time at least in British colonies in North America, that the legal system had to deal with someone that didn't conform. And the fact that the United States or the modern United States has been dealing with questions of gender identity and sexuality, since quite literally colonists arrived to me demonstrates that like, this is something that isn't new, as much as some people might want to say, rather something that this the system in which we live has been dealing with, and really trying to figure out for, I don't know, almost 400 years now. And I think I think that piece, that obviously is also like, almost like a movement slogan, right?

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 7:22

We've always been here. When you when you share that piece, right, like 400 years is not a small chunk of time, that is several, several centuries that we need to consider when thinking about this. Obviously, this kind of project you're doing and have been doing involves, I think, a lot of just collecting right documents research, putting up this puzzle, in some ways to better create these images and photos of, of times before us that we have some data for I'm sure I can imagine there's probably moments where it's like, we only have so much to build with it, meaning like, we wish there was more and there's only so much we can do. What for you is the importance of documenting and preserving this facet of LGBTQ history.

Sam Apostolopoulos: 8:06

I think really, the answer to that is that someday, someone else will care. I feel like if someone had done the work that I'm doing now, when I was like, in the closet, while in rural Western North Carolina, and I had like come across it, that would have made me much more secure in my identity. So part of it is that like this would have made like younger Sam very happy and like kind of selfishly motivated. But the other side of it is, as I've done this work for the last couple years of like really digging into queer histories in North Carolina and in the broader United States and other countries as well. There's just a lack of like compilation of information. And I think once people start doing that more research can be done. And it provides more useful counters to more bigoted speech that's happening around the world. It's easy to say like No, like queer people have always been here, the queer experience has always been here, but it's a lot more forceful. And you can say like, no, here is a point in the 1600s, when there's data on this, like there's evidence of this. And I think that's something that really drives my work. Because once information is out there, and once activists have access to it, that's how progress is made. Doing this work now is really important in this moment in Chile in history, as well as in the United States history because my project is more of a comparison between the two.

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 9:30

I feel like you've created the perfect bridge to move us into a little bit of this conversation around Chile. So you know, I know you've shared that you've done some research on that you've done research on places outside of outside of Chile to in this legal history. So if you want to share anything about that, please feel free. And for the sake of this, this sort of conversation. I'm just very curious to know about like your pathway towards Chile. And what sort of led you in the direction of being interested in studying legal history of LGB TQ folks there and applying for the Fulbright. Yeah, for sure.

Sam Apostolopoulos: 10:04

I took a class called modern civil wars, my junior year of college. And part of the project was to like propose a hypothetical solution to a modern conflict in a nation state. So my solution was geared towards, like judicial reform. And I want to say Venezuela. And I pointed to Chile's Constitution as an example of how to do judicial reform, one of my peers basically was like, Do you know what's happening in Chile right now? I said, No, what's what's going on there? She was like, you should look into it before you say that, that's how to do a constitution. So then I started looking at TOA and realizing that in the time that I was pointed to US Constitution, and same example, that populace here was trying to overhaul the Constitution. I didn't realize the history tied to the Constitution that was the result of the Pinochet dictatorship. I just read it as a document without understanding the history, which kind of goes against what I was just saying about having to understand the whole history of something. But I started looking into it realize that in this moment, Chile was really moving from this like populous groundswell towards a really progressive constitution, from the 1980 constitution. And in that they were proposing, like really unheard of protections for queer people in a governing document. So today, many constitutions around the world don't preserve queer people's rights explicitly, there's, I think only a handful. And Chile was going to, like run the whole gamut, from like, just everything. And I was like, That is crazy. Like, I want to be there, I want to research it. I feel like this needs to be documented, because like we were just talking about, it's super important to document and preserve that history, and to like, help future activists, while activists in Chile may not need that history of like, this is how the Constitution worked. And this is how the process worked. After this, and other countries may, when I got here, I started having conversation with Chileans about what my research was. And their question was always like, Well, why aren't you just studying in the US like, your constitution is so much better, like you preserve queer people's rights so much better. And then I realized that there was this disconnect between the perception of us abroad and the reality of us in the country, and kind of transitioning my project to compare the two of this is the legal history of Chile. This is how we got to this moment, Chile, and this is legal history of the US and how we got there. And like, why are these paths similar? Why are they different? Because I think that question of, well, isn't your system better? Can you like really easily and say, once you look at the history, and it's not that one system is better, what systems whereas they have had a very interesting history independently. And when you look at them side by side, a lot of it occurred at the same times, which is also kind of crazy. So yeah, that's where I am now. That's what my research is on.

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 12:51

You name for example, that like in what, I guess maybe the right words, or could have been or some ideas of the Chilean constitution, or the new version of it would have the sort of very, I want to use word beautiful protections of, of queer of queer rights. So I just want to ask to clarify, could you share, like what some of those look like for our listeners, because, again, I think going back to what you said, it's like, there can even be this assumption within the US or other countries that those protections are there. But until we actually name them, and address them, it may not be as clear.

Sam Apostolopoulos: 13:26

I think one of the big things is leading up to proposed Constitution. And like the decade prior, there were a lot of legal advancements for queer people in Chile, ranging from anti discrimination, protection to rights for trans individuals to change the notifications about needing medical care. And a lot of those were going to be enshrined in this document, like the anti discrimination protection and the freedom to express oneself, there were some questions as to whether or not marriage equality would be included in it. Not sure if it was at the end. But that kind of really just enshrining the progress that had been made in Chile in the decade prior, and ensuring that regardless of administrative changes, regardless of anything like that, like that foundation for social and political rights would be included into perpetuity.

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 14:14

Now, thank you for addressing that. So, obviously, you've shared a little bit about, you know, what it's been like to do this project in Chile. So I'd like to go even deeper. I'm just curious, like, you know, if you could give us a little bit more of like, what the experience has been, like, you know, overall, and, um, you know, what you've noticed, and just also like, how it's been for you navigating your own identity,

Sam Apostolopoulos: 14:36

right, as someone from the US as a queer person who cares very much about these issues, like what what has it been like for you? And I'm also kind of interested if you don't mind sharing, like what it was like to come up against those assumptions of the US as being sort of this I almost want to call like this better beacon, if that makes sense of of sort of like LGBT queue support or protection. The experience as a whole has been really, I've learned a lot about myself about this subject. And I've been here for seven and a half months. So I'm towards I'm on the tail end of my grant, which is bittersweet. I'm excited to go back to the US see my family. But I'm also going to miss the community I belt here in this, like, just everything about this experience. As far as the work is concerned, I have found it interestingly, fairly similar to the research I've done in the US, it's a lot of like reading newspapers, and going down those routes, consulting government documents, and kind of reading them with a fine tooth comb to tease out like, Is this really what this person is saying, like, let me cross check to this other document and make sure that I'm not like misunderstanding, something that is a colloquial term, or like just reading past a nickname or something like that. So kind of gaining that cultural consciousness and reading, it's been really interesting. And that work is then originally that was all I was doing is really like in the archives reading newspapers, there's a couple books that have been published about just the queer history of Chile, kind of using those to find sources. And then building off of that watching that snowball basically have far too many timelines like written all over in various different notebooks. And it might, maybe one day, I'll find all of them because at this point, they've, they're scattered. But it's also been really nice to just look outside of the traditional academic space and just see what's out there. So I came across a website that referenced a play, looked at the play to see what it was realized it was like, happening that week. So part of my research was going to this play and like emailing with the director, and like, seeing what the sources they had used where, because the play was about queer life during the dictatorship. So it's really interesting, just confluence of information. And my advisor has been really great as well for pointing me in directions for sources and like recommending, if I look at X, Y, and Z, which has been really great, as far as the latter part of that question of coming up against the idea that the US is like this beacon for queer rights. I think a lot of that has to do with just timing, and the noise that I think the US media can make around the world. And I think because advancement in the US has happened, kind of on par with Chile. But again, like the US has a large population, a larger media network, it just makes more noise. And so an example of that is Chile repealed or partially repealed its law criminalizing sodomy in 1999. The US did that in 2003. So like Chile was ahead, Chile, nationally banned discrimination against queer people in 2012. I believe the equivalent lot of that would be like the Matthew Shepard Hate Crime Act, which I think was in 2011. So again, pretty on par 2015, in the US, you had marriage equality in 2015. In Chile, there was civil union, like legalization. So a lot of these things have been happening kind of in tandem. And I think just because the way in which the US has been able to project what happens there around the world, and also, the way in which just the broader global North has been able to like stake its claim and queer rights has been partially a cause of this idea that the US is really like far ahead, in comparison. But the reality is, a lot of the leaders in queer rights are in the Global South, like Brazil and South Africa and Argentina and Chile, like, these advancements have been happening around the world, in like at record speeds, and comparing Chile to the US has been really interesting in that regard. Because like, from the time of like, decriminalizing same sex intimacy to same sex marriage or civil unions was, like 15 years, that's outrageously fast on the global scale. And the fact that that isn't really I don't want to say appreciated, but really, like, given its its spotlight, both here and in the US. I think it's like a real missed opportunity for queer activists, because it is very true that like, that work is the result of like grassroots organizing, and the work that queer people have been putting in for the last decades. And the fact that it's been successful around the world very quickly, is just a testament to the work that's been done in the work that is continuing to happen. No, I

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 19:37

think it's so important that you like you name that because I think especially like in movement space, it's sometimes so easy to think about, like where we have to go and there is so much more to be done. And to also realize like to celebrate also what has been accomplished or at least like really honor that because you're right. It's the work. It's the labor it's the time of people who also put themselves in sometimes very very insecure situation to advance things that, you know, a general public may be against, or that certain parts of that public, which is very powerful are again. So I mean, I appreciate you like naming that. And I think Chile, you know, recently had to commemorate the 50th anniversary of, you know, the coup laid by Pinochet back by the United States that occurred on September 11. And 1973. And what has hasn't come up, you met named a little bit, I'm curious, like a has the impact of the coup come up in your work and study of LGBT legal history and rights? So number one, if you have been looking at that, what what is your sense of the impact? And how does that play into how folks understand the LGBTQ movement in Chile, and pretend and potentially, to their relationship to the United States? Yeah,

Sam Apostolopoulos: 20:54

I think part of it is that the coup or moreso, the aftermath of it, the end of the dictatorship in 1990. I think that is a real launchpad for a lot of human rights advocacy in Chile. And it's one of the more interesting things come up in my research is that in the couple of months prior before the coup in April of 1973, there was a protest outside of laminata, which is the presidential palace that's commonly billed as the first like gay rights protest. And interestingly, in that protest, they were advocating the activists were advocating for civil rights for queer civil rights, kind of borrowing from the Civil Rights Movement, the United States and other civil rights movements around the world. And then after the coup, and after the dictatorship, the framing had shifted to human rights and framing queer rights as human rights and acknowledging that the dictatorship had countless human rights violations and crimes against humanity in some instances, and Chile as a nation reckoned with that. And really, I think, as a as a system decided to kind of centralize human rights. And so a lot of the documents that I found, since the dictatorship have emphasized the importance of human rights, and in like, the earliest conversations about anti discrimination bill that was passed in 2012, it's framed, and we owe it to these international agreements to protect the human rights of all of our citizens. And we're not doing that for queer people, because we're not protecting them from discrimination. Like that just needs to change. And I think that has been one of the things that the aftermath of the Pinochet era has really focused on this this human rights aspect. I also think that the coup itself and life during the dictatorship for queer people is really multifaceted. And that there are several accounts in queer histories like there's a book called Rado rattle. And that focuses on the whole history of queer rights in Chile. And I think the big thing between the commemoration of the coup is emphasizing that, commemorating the 50th, the 50th anniversary of it is the emphasis that now Chile is, I think, more grounded in these human rights and more dedicated to protecting them, then I would argue, most countries right now, and it's for an unfortunate reason, like you can directly tie it back to the violence that occurred. And but it is still this really, I think, central goal right now.

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 23:36

Well, I just want to go back for a second, because I think the thing you were talking about was just like the fact of understanding queer life during the dictatorship is multifaceted. And so I was curious if you could expand a little bit on that, because I know you mentioned is its work about oh, and I just want to Yeah, I'd love to know more about that multifaceted illness, right? Because what I'm assuming the direction we're going is understanding that it was not just one experience, and that there were multiple things that probably were occurring in that space.

Sam Apostolopoulos: 24:06

Yes, yeah. Thank you for for bringing me back to where I was. Yes. So there's some really interesting anecdotes in that book, that highlight the kind of disparity between social socio economic classes and their experience like in Chile, and that for individuals with a higher socio economic class that were queer life, and that life under the dictatorship for them was easier than queer members from a lower socioeconomic class. And a really pointed example of that is one of the might be the or it might be one of the oldest like gay bars or gay clubs in South America is in Santiago, and it opened in 1979. So in the midst of the dictatorship, this club opened and the I was kind of shocked about that because The conception is that the dictatorship was super oppressive, and it very much was. But this club opened and is still there. And I've gone a couple of times, it's a delight. But in this book, it talks about how that was a very different like experience because the club cater to this higher socio economic class. And it was designed for them. And there, it wasn't that the dictatorship just ignored it, it was still rated, I want to say I came across a newspaper article that was rated either it's like first or second day open by police. And it the article read very much like the vise baud rates in the US in the 60s, where it's like, you just these police would go in and turn on all the lights and see what was going on and then harass queer people, because I don't know. That's what they did. In comparison to that anecdote of this queer bar opening, the play that I mentioned earlier, is centered on the experiences of the like drag performers and patrons of that club, and how they face police violence and police persecution. And many of them were taken, tortured and detained. And it's just holding both of those at the same time of the experience for queer people during that era was not all the same, just like, it's currently like, it's not the same for queer people in Santiago, and in rural areas. And just like in the US, it's not the same for queer people in New York or in like western North Carolina, for example, it just was really important, I think, to hold that complexity.

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 26:37

One of the internal critiques we even have in LGBTQ spaces, right that, like our experiences are so mediated by who we are by issues of class of race, of gender identity, you know, and I think like, hearing what you're saying, as well, too, is something I think we see in the US, right, that like, those less impacted tend to be like, sis white men with money. And, you know, and it's not, and it's not to ignore any oppression that, you know, like queer sis white men face, it's just to say that, like, we don't have this lens, and we're missing things, right there, we're not understanding the complaint, like we you said, holding the complexity of all of it, in order to have this conversation away, that really recognizes these, as you said, multi multifaceted realities. And I think, you know, as you're sort of talking about this, because you mentioned, of course, that like, you've been really comparing and trying to look at the US and Chile, and understanding really some of those comparisons, those differences and everything of that nature. So you know, when you look at those comparisons, are there other themes or patterns or things that have come up for you? And I guess I'm curious, too, you know, obviously, you know, we have a leftist leader under voltage in Chile. And at the same time, the still kind of movement, a very right wing, extremist propaganda in the Chilean sphere as well, too, very much similar to the US. And I would argue, very much connected because folks talk and work together. Let's just start with the first part, what are some of the themes and patterns that you've sort of noticed between the US and Chile, maybe a more of a cultural level, or if you want to expand more in the legal piece, and any sort of thoughts of just like the moment we're in now,

Sam Apostolopoulos: 28:24

I think you mentioned this earlier about how the US is intentionally designed to be decentralized. And I think in that regard, talking about queer rights in the US, and directly comparing them in Chile is really difficult. Because in the US, really was all queer rights, you can point to, well, this state did it first. And then like it made its way to its neighbors or to the Supreme Court or that kind of thing. And then once it's become fairly large, it gets federalized, that approach, for better or worse kind of makes sense. But the system in the US that we have of like, it'll start small and and get big, and then once it's reached the Supreme Court, or once Congress decides to do something, then change can happen. And a lot of that is motivated by like, small communities of like activist and changing popular opinion and that kind of thing. And Chile, I think I touched on this earlier, the framing aspect of rights being framed as human rights, specifically, that terminology is something that I think is really well understood here of just a difference in framing where it's, these are human rights, we need to protect them. Whereas in the US the question of it's a civil right, where does that really come from? Where can you draw on that from our governing documents, like whose obligation is it to protect civil rights? That kind of those kinds of questions are more I found, at least in my research to be more common in the US? There's a lot more complexity to the general populace, like the general populations understanding of civil rights as like, generally think They're good thing but not really understanding like, how broad they are? Or like, should they be broad? Should we think of civil rights is a, like group basic, those kinds of questions where I think the framing here has inspired more of just to kind of groundswell of support of just like queer rights like human rights, human rights are good, let's like, protect that. And I think that's been one of the things that I found really interesting. And that also translates to like the legal advocacy that's happened as well. So like I mentioned, this a lot of framing of human rights, square to human rights in judicial, like in government documents here. And that I think it's really interesting because it ties into all of this, like international law stuff that I don't really dive into. But it's, it's really neat. And looking at, oh, like, this framing, is really intentional, because it kind of ties this to a broader, like international obligation, where the US like, doesn't really love treaties, and like, oftentimes doesn't play well with international law, which is a whole other conversation. But I think that's another thing where you have the social impact of the framing of human rights versus civil rights. And then once you like, actually take that and put it into the government, it's like, oh, this distinction actually matters. And it matters differently in both countries. No,

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 31:25

I think it's so important you bring that up, because I think in my experience, the US to get certain people who very much believe in the US exceptionalism to listen to must be spoken in the language of the US. And when and when you know, like, what sounds like you're saying in Chile, is that as many un documents that the US has not ratified would say, it's not a question, right? It sounds like for many people, it's not a question these, you know, these are human rights period. This is what this means. So it's interesting to hear that very clear understanding, you know, in common under in common sort of backing, on the other side of things where we are seeing, in particular, in the United States, a growing number of legislation that's really trying to harm the rights in particular of trans and non binary folks, whether it's around access to health care, participation, sports, things of that nature. I think it couldn't turn that I always have is how our politics and I would say our politics of marginalization can spread. And so I'm curious, like, I hope the answer is no, of course. But you know, I'm curious, like in Chile, are we seeing any waves of how those movements within those kind of more right wing movements in our own country are spreading to a country like Chile? And if so, like, if there are any particular things that you want to make sure an audience knows and learns about?

Sam Apostolopoulos: 32:40

Yeah, well, I think so. I'm first gonna ground this. And my understanding is pretty like a while I've done a lot of legal, like legal history research and social history stuff here. And my research doesn't necessarily focus on current events entirely. I can like, just just a preface with that. That being said, during the campaigns for the proposed Constitution here, which was in was voted on September of last year, so in August of last year, and late July, there was a I don't want to say explicit misinformation campaign. But there was some exaggeration that I heard about, regarding the rights of like gender identity, that were included in the document, that there wasn't a central focus of the reject campaign. But it was it I mean, like that was present. I think one of the differences though, is that Chile federally protects those rights. So in Chile, there's a right for trans people to transition. And with or without medical intervention, with or without, like, going before a judge, like just the right to do those things. And I think because that has already, like passed Congress and exists, I don't think that those attacks are as I don't say pertinent, but as common because it's like, this is already a law. Whereas in the US, it's creating a problem out of something that like really shouldn't be an issue, like, plainly. And I think, in Chile, it's like this, this has already been addressed. And while it can come up again, and has come up, to some extent, I think a lot of that has been kind of stifled by this just generally, this is already the state of affairs like this is what's happened.

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 34:35

Well, that gets me thinking because I didn't really think about this, but it kind of helps me understand even the fights in the US by anti LGBTQ folks to not have those protections. Because if we don't have those protections in our Constitution are in our protect our legal system, then we can continue to question the validity of these identities and these communities and that so That's Thank you, because that kind of helps me I think make more sense of those strategies that I don't like. We're approaching kind of the closing. So I just have a few more questions. A lot of our rhetoric is always from the US perspective, what can the world learn from us? But what can the world look in the US or from Chile? When it comes to either how we address LGBTQ legal history, how we address LGBTQ plus rights? Like, is there any is there one or two things that stand out to you is something that like the United States should really incorporate or learn or be more in conversation, perhaps with movements in Chile around LGBTQ communities and rights?

Sam Apostolopoulos: 35:39

Yeah, and I don't necessarily think that this answer is explicit to which land case, I think this is probably the way that most systems do this. But I think in the US, generally, there is a hesitancy to legislate on rights, at least queer rights, quite literally every like, queer rights case, that has happened at the federal level has happened in my lifetime, with the exception of Burma, but like, that, is kind of crazy. And like one, not being afraid to like, do the legislation, but also not being afraid to like actually advance the rights of queer people, like queer people are still citizens, like they deserve the same rights as other citizens. So maybe protecting them would be a move. I think that's the big thing. It's just like, in Chile, for the last three decades, there's been just an I don't want to say, a massive amount of legislation surrounding curfew, but it has just been like, oh, like there's an issue that affects a portion of the population, let's fix that. And the legislature, rather than in the US, where we generally will fix at a state level, or like, activists will sue their way to the Supreme Court. Not that that's wrong, because that is how our systems kind of designed to work. But it doesn't have to work that way. And Congress can pass laws that circumvent that whole process. But it just doesn't. So I think that's the big the big takeaway is like, just like pass a law, like other countries have done it, look at that. Right?

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 37:13

Don't claim you care about us if you're not going to do anything. Right. Yeah. I think the last few questions is just, you know, I think you've given a lot of just really important things for anyone listening take away. Is there anything else you'd like to share? Whether related to this specific topic or in general? Like, is there any sort of lesson or idea you'd like an audience to take away from this conversation as relates to this kind of larger topic of LGBTQ rights, legal history, things of that nature?

Sam Apostolopoulos: 37:42

I think the biggest thing is that just like, every, every place, has a like, queer history. Like, regardless of where it is, it exists. And like that needs to be studied, that needs to be lifted up like it, even if like you, as a person, do not do history, like, even if you're not a queer person, like this history matters. It just matters and needs to be done. And that work needs to be done. And really just like, think critically about where you live, and if you know about it, and if not, like, maybe Google it, maybe see if those answers are there. And if they aren't, then that's a whole adventure that you can go on.

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 38:24

I want to say this with it with like, caution. By that I just mean, you obviously I know have a lot to move through as you're finishing your grant and your project. With that said, like, what are you currently thinking about for the future? Or just even dreaming of like, what is what is Sam's dream at this moment for the future that could include a nap but I just think in general when it comes to your work and other things?

Sam Apostolopoulos: 38:47

Well, my goal for my Fulbright experience is to have a paper by the end of it that I like, kind of sent out to the gamut of journals, but we'll see if that shakes out, because I'm an unaffiliated researcher. And I've heard that's kind of an uphill battle outside of the Fulbright experience I'm currently applying to law schools. So hopefully, I'm going to be applying this legal or legal history stuff in the US building on my Fulbright experience, trying to make America more just plates. And really just working on that. And then also like moving forward digging into this, like legal history research more. Once I have like more of a background and like the law, because right now I'm just kind of like a historian kind of doing it. And my hope is that once I have more of like, the legal bones of it, I can be like, now this is how this long works. That kind of hurt. But yeah, that's that's what I'm thinking about right now.

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 39:39

That's a solid vision. And then I guess my last question is just to anyone out there you know, considering applying for a Fulbright, right, who just has an idea of ringing their head, you know, is interested, obviously we have other programs teaching English, things of that nature. Like what would you say that person?

Sam Apostolopoulos: 39:56

Honestly, I like can't even describe the ways in which Just that I have like, grown as a person from this experience. And if you had told me when I was applying for this, that I would one, get it. And to like, be here, I wouldn't have believed you. Like, I have grown so much. And there's so much to gain from a Fulbright from even applying, like I learned a lot about myself in the application process. It's not like a simple application. Like there's a lot of, like introspection that I think should go into it. But honestly, like, I could not recommend this experience enough. Like, if you're even considering applying for a Fulbright, like, do it.

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 40:37

Well, Sam, thank you so much for taking the time to be part of this episode. I definitely leave you with lots to think about, and I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you. Yeah, of course. Thank

Sam Apostolopoulos: 40:46

you so much. Had a great time.

Jeremy Ryan Gombin-Sperling: 40:49

That's all for this episode of Fulbright forward. Remember that you can access our full library of episodes on your favorite podcast app such as Apple podcasts, Spotify or overcast. You also can see a list of some of the media and books that Sam mentioned on this episode's Buzzsprout page. Thank you for listening. Take care, be well and support queer history.